How to Have Fun with Pluto - Duncan Nanney

How to Have Fun With Pluto (Revisited)
Duncan Nanney

Lecture Transcription
NCGR San Francisco Chapter
Fort Mason, March 21, 2002

Available for astrological consult: call (408) 321-8776
"One does not achieve enlightenment by imagining figures of light but by making darkness
conscious. The latter procedure is disagreeable and therefore not popular." - Carl Jung
If you looked at a calendar for this particular week, you probably surmised that the date we chose
for this lecture was no accident. Steve [Pincus, NCGR chapter president] and I sort of got our
heads together and decided this would be a pretty good time to do this. Pluto just went retrograde
yesterday. We have Venus trine Pluto tonight and we have Mercury square Pluto tomorrow. A lot
of the time people don’t think Pluto going retrograde is all that significant but this year it is
different, because now with Saturn moving forward and Pluto now going backwards, the last
run-by of Saturn opposition Pluto in May is going to be approaching us with greater intensity and
it's like somebody has just tightened the screws here this week and we’ll be feeling more and
more of the energy of the upcoming Saturn opposition Pluto from now on and if we’re smart we
try to be as conscious as possible as to what all of that kind of energy is about because you don’t
want to reach May 25th, the day we have the Saturn opposition Pluto, in a true state of blindness.
It’s a good idea to be doing what you can to be working on your Plutonian issues between now
and then with a little mix of Saturn thrown in.
The thing about Pluto, like any other planet, is that it has to do with ENERGY. And when you
think about it, the world is divided up into two classes of people. We have a group of people who
very much believe in the existence of energy and there’s a lot of people who have no idea of
what you’re talking about when you use the word “energy”. A room has energy, people have
energy, obviously a day has energy based not only on the astrology but on other things like
Numerology as well and in order for anybody to appreciate Astrology you have to be open to the
idea of energy and exactly what this means. So one thing we can say right now is if you’re
willing to come to this particular lecture tonight, you must be open to the energy of Pluto, at least
to a certain extent. Because there are a lot of other things you could have done this evening,
ruled by other more innocent planets. Because when you are dealing with Pluto energy, like
when you say the word “Scorpio”, the sign that’s ruled by Pluto, it tends to cause the blood to
race a little bit more than if you’re talking about some of the other planets. So as we grow older,
we tend to vibrate more to certain planets and sometimes this has to do with certain obvious
principles associated with the aging process. Now what do I mean by that? Well, we have the
Moon and we have Saturn. And whether or not you believe in Astrology, as you grow older you
tend to be responding to these two planets in particular because they deal with the issue of
control. And people like to have more and more control as they grow older. So the easy thing to
do on a night like this is probably not to come to any Pluto lecture or any lecture at all but
embrace what these particular planets represent. For instance, you could just as easily do
something San Francisco is very famous for, you could have eaten food this evening, not just
before the lecture, but you know, all night long, because one of the common denominators for all
of us is that we have to eat. And in many cases, people find that’s a very basic thing we can
always come back to that feels SAFE. We can always go out to EAT. Certainly my experience
with women is you can always go out to LUNCH with them. But when you start proposing other
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things, it becomes a much iffier proposition. But food is something that usually everybody is
comfortable with, especially in the middle of the day when it is not likely to lead on to any kind
of hanky panky, which of course can happen if you have dinner.
The Moon rules everything that we do without thinking. It rules our compulsions, our sense of
security, and a lot of things that have to do with simple boredom and depression. And some
people decide that may be preferable over other types of excitement. So you always have a
gravitational pull with this, because as you grow older you start getting into a routine, I think you
will agree and it’s very easy to stay in that routine and to decide not to do anything different at all
and many relationships of course are like that too, which is not exactly what Hollywood movies
are about. People just sitting around watching television, you know, have nothing to say to each
other in particular. And of course you can go over on this side of the aisle too and deal with
Saturnian energies as an excuse for not coming to a lecture such as this. You have
OBLIGATIONS. You have something you SHOULD be doing which you think is more serious.
You think that people your age are not supposed to go out at night. You have a kind of
STRUCTURE. You have rules. You have all of these things that tend to be so confining.
And then there is another planet that gets into the works a certain amount too: Neptune. A lot of
us are just kind of spaced out and we may be spending the evening drinking to a greater degree
which is certainly a Neptune thing. Maybe taking an anti-depressant. Maybe an anti-anxiety
thing and heaven knows what that’s going to produce. Or we’re just going to kind of meditate the
day away and sort of pretend it didn’t happen, conceivably.
So all of these planets, they’re like a gravitational pull that we can easily get sucked into more
and more as we grow older. As we become lazier. And we become accustomed to the sometimes
more passive things that these particular planets represent.
So anyway, if you encounter someone who is responding more to the energies of the Moon,
which might be a Cancerian, or a Saturnian person that might be a Capricorn, you certainly don’t
have to be just those signs in order to behave like this. If you become involved with them, they
may try to tell you on an evening like this, “You don’t really want to go out, I’m going to cook
something for you here”, or “We should be working on our income tax here tonight, you know
that’s coming up pretty soon. We’d better deal with the government here before we do anything
else and see if we have any money left over.” But then they might also say, well OK, we’ll give
you a little break. You can go out and you can embrace the energies of the Sun if you want, if
you wanted to act a little more youthful spirited, perhaps express your physical vitality, whatever
it is you think you should be doing for your success, or you can go to the library. I don’t think
they’d get too bothered about that maybe. or buy a book at the bookstore and bring it home.
There’s an easy one that’s not too scary. Or you can go out with friends. You might even, you
know, get married and that would be socially acceptable. You can go out for a little drive in your
car or you could work on your car, a good American pastime in this rather warrior-like country of
ours. And of course you can always do something that would contribute to your financial and
professional success, that’s also considered something that is basically more acceptable.
We talked about Saturn – well, we know about that one. Uranus gets a little bit on the iffy side these days you could go to a computer store and perhaps vibrate with Uranus, bring a computer
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home, be on your computer all night, which is what a lot of people do these days, and in that
sense that’s starting to turn into this kind of energy up here. I have a lot of friends who now
refuse to communicate with me in any way except by e-mail! Scary. Scary business. You could
go to a meditation group. That would be a fairly placid kind of thing.
But if you say you want to do something with Pluto they are not going to be very happy with
what you might be proposing, because there are not a lot of things under the rulership of Pluto
that people tend to be terribly comfortable with. Because most of what Pluto is about is what
makes people squirm. Just as a Scorpio seemingly makes people squirm without even trying.
There’s just something about the energy of that planet and its corresponding sign that a lot of
people tend to be uncomfortable with. So the Fundamentalist Christians of course consider Pluto
to be TEMPTATION. And they consider it to be the Devil. And you’d better just not do anything
remotely associated with that particular thing. But the actual situation in my view is that the real
temptations are up here. The temptation to do absolutely NOTHING. To me that’s succumbing to
truly negative energy, whereas Pluto represents some kind of adventure by which you can learn.
One of the purposes of life as I understand it is that we are supposed to utilize our creative power
to think up ideas, to fantasize, to establish goals and then try them out and make mistakes and
learn from those mistakes and then utilize our creative power again to accomplish something.
But this energy up here has absolutely nothing to do with creative power. It has to do with sitting
around and doing absolutely nothing and basically waiting to die. Whereas if you start to
embrace Uranus and a planet like Pluto, at least you’re acting somewhat alive here. At least
you’re starting to work with what is supposed to be the process of every soul which is to learn
from an incarnation and sometimes doing something a little bit EXTREME. Sometimes that feels
like a gigantic type of forbidden fruit.
There was a movie that came out a number of years ago that was full of Plutonian imagery. And
a lot of people really don’t like the movie because it is so uncomfortable to watch and it was
made by David Lynch, who recently did “Mulholland Drive”, which a lot of people didn’t think
was a terribly wholesome movie either. But at least “Blue Velvet” made sense to me. It had a plot
that went somewhere and that is the movie I’m referring to.
I don’t know how many people in this room saw the movie “Blue Velvet” but it was full of a lot
of interesting Pluto symbolism – we have someone nodding here- anyone else see “Blue Velvet”?
Good. In that movie, if you will recall, there was a fellow by the name of Jeffrey Beaumont,
played by Kyle McLachlan from “Twin Peaks”. He was walking around in a field and he found
somebody’s ear. And he took it down to police headquarters and perhaps thought he could forget
about that. But soon it was sort of getting in his thoughts all of the time and he couldn’t let go of
it. So one evening while he was at home and his mother and his grandmother – I never found out
who these two women were – one evening he decided he would take a little walk down there to
the detective’s house, the detective he had spoken to who he had given the ear to. And as he was
leaving, the mother was saying “Do you want the car?” “No, I’m just going to walk around.”
Mother says, “All right.” And then there’s an old woman next to her and she says “Jeffrey, you’re
not going down by LINCOLN Street are you?” And then he says, “No, just a walk around the
neighborhood.” OK. So he goes down to the detective’s house. The detective’s a little
condescending because he knows he can’t tell this young man anything about the case – it’s
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obviously something that requires discretion. But he runs into the detective’s daughter outside
who tells him that she not only overheard the conversation he just had with the detective but
she’s been overhearing conversations the detective’s been having about this case of the ear that
was found in the field. And she says that it’s associated with a woman singer by the name of
Dorothy Valens, whose name keeps coming up. And she lives near that field. So the daughter,
whose name is Sandy, asks Jeffrey if he would like to go and see where this woman lives and of
course Mr. Beaumont cannot exactly resist that idea. So they go down the street and they end up
at a streetcorner and Sandy is pointing across the street at this rather sinister apartment building,
the Deep River Apartments. And says, “That’s where she lives, right over there.” And as they’re
standing there, you know, the music starts getting sinister and the camera starts to go up the
street signpost and it goes up and of course it stops on the word “LINCOLN”. Lincoln Street.
Where his mother and his grandmother, or whoever that was, didn’t want him to go.
Now this is just one of the MANY symbols you could work with to symbolize Plutonian energy.
Is it some kind of synchronicity that I’m making an important point here and a truck horn sounds
in the background? Perhaps. I do pay attention to those kinds of things. You could use a lot of
symbols to pertain to Plutonian energy but this Lincoln Street, for instance, it’s an area of town
that represents a kind of temptation. And if you take a look at one of the handouts that I gave you
[see “Planetville”, next page], something I put together as a result of a wonderful book that came
out by Mr. Rex Bills, “The Rulership Book”. And if you don’t have this book, well, you’re
missing out on something. Because in here, you have all of the subject matter of Life divided up
through the planets, and the signs, and the houses. So I thought I would do that little map there
which showed where these different categories fell in terms of business establishments, etc. What
the individual workings of cities are really all about and a city is like a human being. It has all
kinds of different facets, things we’re comfortable with, and things we are not. At the bottom you
will find what we would call Pluto Street. And you may be interested to know that I became so
obsessed with this whole business very recently that I looked in the postal directory: there are
three Pluto Streets in California, and two of them are over in the East Bay, one of them is in a
trailer park, and the other is in a very UGLY condominium complex, mostly garages with no
windows in particular. I guess there was some symbolism there. And I just went to Sacramento
and saw the other one and I will tell you that one was just as dull as dishwater. You really hope
for things to happen when you go to streets like this, you know, at least one sinister looming
house, something suggestive. But yeah, it's been kind of underwhelming what I’ve found so far.
There’s a Pluto, West Virginia, There’s a Pluto, Mississippi.
Audience: “But who knows what’s *inside*?”
What’s inside, yes, the people there. That’s what’s important, isn’t it and I’m too hung up on the
appearance of these houses and if we’re dealing with Pluto, yes, we’re dealing with everything
that’s UNDERNEATH seeming placid types of exteriors, so yes, thank you very much for
bringing that up.
That Pluto Street down at the bottom of your map is everybody’s concern. When they go to a
town, usually that’s the last place that most people want to go. Because of the kinds of things you
find down there. It may be called the so-called BAD part of town. But of course if you stay in a
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town long enough and you never ever go down there, your imagination is going to start working.
And despite all of your attempts to shun whatever those thoughts may be about that area of town,
ultimately you’ll probably want to go down there and see exactly what is there. Pluto is a
gravitational pull like all of the planets are. But it can be a particularly intriguing one that keeps
drawing you back again and again and again despite all of your efforts to direct your energies
somewhere else. You wouldn’t be here tonight if you were not willing to cross boundaries and
conceivably go to a part of town that other people tend to be uncomfortable with because Pluto
has everything to do with boundaries and our willingness to cross them and if we are unwilling
to cross them, well, there are problems that will arise.
The thing about Lincoln Street and about anything associated with Pluto is the more you try to
put a lid on what it represents, the more it’s going to fester and the more insistent it’s going to be
that you experience it in some form. So if you don’t go to Lincoln Street eventually in terms of
what it represents to you, in terms of something that you may be attempting to suppress that
you’re not comfortable with perhaps, then it’s going to come to you because you’re shoveling it
into your unconscious and you’re certainly not getting rid of it. So that street on that map, it’s
just sort of sitting down there and it’s kind of watching and it’s kind of waiting for you to go
down there. If you watch “Blue Velvet”, of course the movie didn’t end with the sinister music
and the camera pointing at the Lincoln Street sign. Probably one of the most evil characters I’ve
seen in a movie is in it and he played that to the hilt: Dennis Hopper, who played “Frank”. Frank
has to be one of the nastier human beings you could possibly imagine and they added a sinister
twist to the movie by constantly having him sucking on laughing gas. He puts this mask up to his
face every now and then and I didn’t know what he was sucking on there. But that is apparently
what it was according to what I have recently read. Something about that added a particularly
provocative and uncomfortable twist to the whole proceedings.
But the interesting thing about that movie is that Jeffrey Beaumont is sort of the good guy in the
movie. He’s not exactly Mr. Clean Cut in this movie either. I mean he is a voyeur and he goes
into that apartment. He sneaks in where this woman singer lives and spies on her and things get a
little strange in terms of what his particular trip is. There was a particular thing that he said to
Sandy before he went in there. He said, “There are opportunities in life for gaining knowledge
and experience. Sometimes it’s necessary to take a risk.” Now I got to thinking, you know that
someone might learn a lot by getting into that woman’s apartment, you know, sneaking in, hide,
observe. So obviously he was titillated. He was excited by what he would find there and certainly
the movie took off from there as he eventually encounters Dennis Hopper and then things really
get nasty.
Something that happened to me a number of years ago, which is symbolic of this whole issue
which Pluto is about, is I was involved in a particularly prissy kind of meditation group. I was
there for about five years and they were very, very rigid, these people, even though I think they
had some very nice motivations. There were just so many “don’ts” and so many “shoulds” that
ultimately I felt very self-conscious and uncomfortable and had to leave. But one of the things
they were always doing was talking about the need to emphasize your heart chakra and meditate
so you stay there. And the problem with the way they taught is they just inspired so much fear in
me that I might stray away from the heart chakra for one second, that I might actually end up
thinking about something else that has to do with other subject matter. So I had an interesting
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experience: I went to a healer, a spiritual healer, that was part of the group and she gave me a
very interesting healing which definitely opened up my heart chakra, at least it felt like it at the
time, and I was in this very nice kind of state of ecstasy for two or three or four days it seemed
like, and I just thought to myself, Oh god! I’ve got to stay here! I can’t get out of this state. But
how do you stay in this state all of the time? Is it possible to stay high this long? So then of
course as I start to feel this energy wane, I started to panic. I can’t afford to get out of this
particular state. I should be staying in this particular level of ecstasy as long as I can. And it’s
probably just a sign of my own weakness that I cannot. So of course what would happen, as
would happen with anybody, is I started looking around for other ways of trying to maintain this
such as praying, such as surrounding myself in the White Light, asking for someone to come
along who was also very much in the heart chakra and we would attempt to reinforce that
particular state. Well, nobody like that arrived. So of course what happened ultimately, I started
having dreams, and these were not dreams about little birds or little angels flying around. I was
having sex dreams and they were not going away and I was never comfortable about talking
about these things to my guru because I am sure she wouldn’t have thought this was a good thing
at all. But it just brought up the absurdity of this whole business that we have to be in one spot
and not another. This whole idea that the world is Us vs. Them and Good vs. Bad and Light vs.
Dark and that we have to pick one or the other and we can never be both is certainly responsible
for all of the world’s problems and all of our inabilities to achieve a really spiritually integrated
type of state. So in my view you don’t transcend anything by repressing it, in other words. You
work with it. Because if you are in denial about something that you’re feeling uncomfortable
about, you’re just going to make it unconscious. But it is not going to go away and this is one of
the things that disturbed me so much about a lot of metaphysical books is they will say, for
instance, it’s bad to be angry so then you say to yourself, oh ok, I can’t be angry then so I won’t
be angry. Well you know, it’s just not that simple. Just because something is so-called “bad”
doesn’t mean it goes away. So you have to process what you think is bad, or better yet, figure out
that maybe this bad thing isn’t so bad and is something that needs to be assimilated into your
world.
I have been practicing astrology now for about thirty years or so and it used to be that I would
have a lot of bother about the Born Again Christians and their views about astrology which is
admittedly not very complimentary and of course there is the scientific community out there
which gives us a lot of flak but I have to admit that by now, I haven’t really had very much
contact with Born Again Christians or the scientific community. They just basically leave me
alone. But if there is conflict, it’s so often with other people within the New Age community
where you will truly encounter a war of egos in many cases and people who are certainly not
comfortable with the energies of Pluto. They would just as soon remain in their Neptunian
Meditation Center, surround themselves in the White Light, say they love everything whether or
not that happens to be true, and generally not want to deal with some of the more basic issues
that are associated with this Pluto.
One of the things that really bothers me about a lot of the people in the New Age community is
there is one thing that comes up a lot that I’m always hearing and that is these people who say
they are a really, really old soul. I haven’t met anybody who thinks they are a young soul yet in
the New Age community. Everybody thinks they are an old, old soul and it doesn’t stop at that!
They also think this is their last lifetime. And they also think they have no karma, they didn’t
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have to come back in this lifetime at all and they are only here to give us all a break. They don’t
think there’s anything here for them to learn, in other words, and they can just sit around and live
through these things up here – the Moon and Saturn – basically do nothing or listen to other
people’s problems and think they’re offering some kind of service. It is my conviction that when
we get into the Hereafter, if you go up there saying Well, this was my last lifetime guys, so
where’s the parade here? You know you’re going to get hit over the head with a hammer for that.
We’re all here on Earth to learn and we’re all here to embrace all of the planets.
The thing I didn’t like about this meditation group is they didn’t emphasize the fact that we really
need to be all of our chakras and we also – when we’re talking about astrology – we need to be
all of the planets sooner or later. We have to experience all of them and, if we can, get them all to
operate harmoniously within our charts. One of the things I did when I was first starting out in
astrology way back in ’72 - they didn’t have as many good books on astrology in those days - so
I got Llewellyn George’s book The A-Z Horoscope Maker and Delineator which has a lot of
information in it and also a lot of nothing, as a matter of fact. But it’s not a bad start except that
everything in there is divided up into Good and Bad, Benefic and Malefic. So my impression of
astrology was Yeah, I’ve got these planets in my chart like Saturn, Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto
and they’re BAD and I’m just supposed to not experience those. I’m supposed to emphasize the
Sun, Venus, Jupiter, things like that. Of course that is not exactly the enlightened way of
approaching any chart is to look at it in this kind of Good/Bad category. But I won’t deny that
when you work with the planets, and you’re working with Pluto, you are not necessarily dealing
with things that are pleasant. One of the interesting things…
Audience: “Just in terms of your chart [Planetville], this may be due to a traditional system but
I’m not sure why the Jail you have as Neptune. I would see that as Pluto.”
Yes, that’s a good point. Of course that wasn’t necessarily my judgment. It was Mr. Rex Bills in
his book who says so. But I absolutely see your point. I think Pluto represents the wastebasket of
the chart and could very well stand for people in deep, deep trouble…
Audience: “What about power issues around prisons?”
Absolutely. And power is a really important thing when you’re dealing with Pluto, it’s often the
people who have all of it or the people who have none of it. I was doing a lecture, I should say I
was having a dream many years ago about doing a lecture on Pluto oddly enough…
(Alarm bell goes off.)
Well, that sounds like it’s going to be synchronistic too.
For the topic I’m about to raise… long before I adopted Pluto as the planet I was most interested
in, I had a dream and in the dream I was giving a lecture about astrology and I got into the
subject of Pluto and what I said in the dream which I had never, ever said before or even thought
was that Pluto is the mirror that nobody wants to look in. And I do think that this is a valid
perception regarding this down here. Because no matter how much time you spend working on
yourself in a so-called “spiritual” capacity through meditation, through a lot of centering, which
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may very well be valid and do a lot of good for you, Pluto is kind of like the last card you still
need to play and it’s still out there as something that you may need to address as something in
your own particular being that you happen to be uncomfortable with. Now one of the things that
came up kind of coincidentally – and of course I don’t really believe in coincidence – is that
there was a book by a man named Brugh Joy called Avalanche which came out a number of
years ago and I like this New Age writer because he is indeed willing to address issues which
make a lot of New Age people uncomfortable. He went to Findhorn, for instance, which is a very
Neptunian community in the British Isles that deals with growing vegetables and plants of
various sorts, you know, through very high spiritual energies. And he said a lot of times out there
they didn’t want to hear about their own particular projections, etc., stuff like that. He has a kind
of a willingness to address a lot of the topics that people are uncomfortable with. And this is
something that he said that we could apply to the map that I just handed out [Planetville] and I’m
not going to sit here and read to you all night because I know that’s quite a cure for insomnia if I
do too much of that. But he said:
“All possibilities of existence are maintained and nurtured in the matrix of The City, all Human
potential is incarnate and renewed generation after generation. No aspect of any City is either
right or wrong, all aspects reflect only the full creative suchness of human life. Want to reach full
self-realization? Go live in and be reflected by the spectrum of The City. Be careful though, you
can’t apply value systems appropriate to the family on to rural living when engaging in the full
force of a City. All aspects of life are represented there and all of those aspects, even the most
unsavory, are necessary and appropriate for the psychological perspective. The situation is no
different from that of cells in the human body, and the body’s own organizing force takes
potential cells and directs their development into parts that allow the overall survival and the
well-being of the whole body. Some cells are directed to live as anal cells while other cells are
destined to live as cells in the Central Nervous System. This isn’t a matter of right or wrong or of
good or bad. It is the suchness of things and cities likewise reflect the suchness of our
psychological beings in a vast complex and vibrant manner.”
That’s not too bad. He also said this – this is a little shorter:
“Some individuals are destined to live out almost exclusively the good and acceptable side for
the collective, some individuals are destined to live out almost exclusively the dark and
disowned side for the collective and most of us will be somewhere in-between. At any moment
during a conference there will always be a few people who are miserable and unhappy with the
conference and their relationship to the material being presented. There will also be a few people
who are ecstatic and intoxicated by the conference and their relationship to the material being
presented.”
I’m sure if any of you have ever done a class or been to a class, you have people yawning, you
have people on the edge of their seat. A class, like a city, is very much representative of the
collective energy of all of us and our own individual beings and of course when we’re talking
about Pluto, again we’re talking about things that tend to make people squirm. So one of the
things that you have to do if you want to work with Pluto constructively is you have to accept a
certain basic premise that good and so-called evil and light and dark are things that we should
have co-exist side-by-side in harmony. Christianity, I feel, has a major fault in that they really
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have divvied up – especially among the Fundamentalist Christians – this idea that we are either
Christian or we are in league with the devil. Everything outside of Christianity is considered
Wrong but I’m sorry to say that I have encountered some of this in the New Age community too.
There’s a lot of people who think that they are in the one group that has the picture of what is
going to happen to humanity and they’re going to save all of us and if we don’t go along with
their program, we are very much unenlightened. And that indeed is kind of a disturbing concept
that we shouldn’t find among a lot of the groups that are associated with the New Age
community. So once you decide that a part of you is good and a part of you is bad you have
blocked your own spiritual integration. And Pluto is the biggest challenge to that particular
process.
Very recently and ongoing now in the news we have a very obvious situation going on regarding
the Catholic clergy. And you know what it is. And this had come about off and on through many
years. Catholic priests are not allowed to have sex, they are just not allowed to have it and
therefore you don’t do it, supposedly, but because this is an inherent human need, of the physical
body, the need exists whether or not they think it’s bad. And so of course in that situation you—
Audience: I would say the subject is about pedophilia, not about having sex. It is different.
Oh, of course. What has happened here is that because the priests are not allowed to experience
sex in the usual constructive way such as being married, for instance, then they are compelled to
express it in a form that is clearly not constructive through pedophilia. So that’s what’s in the
news right now – that you have children who have been molested.
Audience: I think you should be a little careful over-generalizing because I think most priests
don’t do that.
Exactly. I’m not going to stand here and condemn the entire Catholic priesthood. In fact, I’ve had
a good many friends of my family who have been Catholic priests and they are some of the
nicest people I’ve ever met. But what we have to consider is that within every group in the
population for instance, you have a certain number of people who are not working well with
Pluto energy and it may be as a result—
Audience: I agree with that and part of why – where I’m coming from on this is one of my best
friends is a therapist and a priest and his mission in the Catholic Church is psychotherapy with
other priests and nuns and he says part of the reason he does that is there has always been,
probably less so nowadays, a group that goes into the priesthood or become sisters because they
have sexual hangups and they are struggling with them as they go in. And his job is to go help
them know that sex is normal and natural and is not evil or bad. So partly they don’t put it on
their parishioners or the kids.
Exactly. So in that sense they are now becoming conscious of the Pluto energy instead of it being
something they’re trying to repress.
Audience: I just add that I think the Plutonian aspect of the Catholic Church is because it’s
based upon partly in that type of repression in latter centuries – so it is kind of like a strange
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attractor to the Plutonian energy within certain people drawn back into that particular basis is
on repression.
I agree. We had another situation that occurred back in the 1920s and it was Prohibition. There
was an attempt by some very virtuous-seeming elderly women – among others – to banish
alcohol from our country and they thought of course that by doing so everything in the United
States would be oh so much more pleasant and also much more easy and, again, we had a
particular need in this country that was overwhelming for alcohol and unwittingly, by outlawing
it, they ended up bringing in a very dark Plutonian force in terms of the criminal underworld
which had a field day for many years selling alcohol which in many cases was absolutely
unhealthy to drink and perpetuating a significant type of gang warfare that these poor little old
ladies probably would never have imagined. So even if today we consider alcohol to be
unhealthy, we recognize that people have a right to indulge in it and to experience it as they see
fit, and there may be abuses but trying to just block the whole experience is not constructive
because again, like all Plutonian energy, it’s going to need to be expressed whether we think it’s
something we’re terribly comfortable with or not.
So one of the things that I propose here for everyone, and that is getting into areas of greater
controversy I would say, is that we all need to be able to incorporate our version of good and our
version of what may seem a little bit naughty or mischievous or decadent as the case may be, as
just simply a basic part of life. What I’m leading up to here is that when you get involved in the
spiritual community, for instance, there’s a tendency to want to establish a position there - let’s
say which is kind of above criticism. And if you had for instance someone like Yogananda – who
is no longer with us, of course – or one of the more current guru-type figures like Gary Zukov,
who I certainly respect for his articulate opinions, if he was to get up here and give you all of the
lurid details of his sex life, I’m not sure everybody would be completely comfortable with that.
And yet by the same token, by not discussing that, perhaps that makes it more difficult for people
to embrace their own particular hidden nature which some people might not consider to be
completely wholesome.
I will tell you right now that I have a chart with what we might call a Pluto-dominated situation. I
happen to have Pluto on my Midheaven. It’s right up here, more or less. I’ve got Scorpio rising
here. And I’ve got a Moon in Scorpio here. So you can probably realize why I would be giving a
lecture on Pluto rather than Neptune, for instance. I am a Pisces but Pluto energy is something
that kind of grabbed me a number of years ago because it does appeal to more of the types of
interests that I possess which are to indeed look into some of the darker, more interesting aspects
of human life, things that some people may not be terribly comfortable talking about. So I could
stand here for instance and talk to you as a lot of speakers do about Pluto and I will continue to
do so. What we’ll be doing a little bit later is go through some sample charts of people with Pluto
in prominent positions and talk about how they chose to express them in a way that you might
consider fun and you might not consider fun but at least it’s an example of how people have
worked with Pluto to a certain extent. And I’ll also be talking about the Saturn Opposition Pluto
and what it’s effects may be. For some of you, we’ll try to go through Pluto in the Houses and
tell you what I see in terms of that because this is certainly the aspect of the year [2002] and the
third run-by coming up in May is certainly likely to be one of the – I should say – the more
significant of these that we are having at this time.
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But I will tell you also that one of the things that I feel is particularly important to do in life is to
pursue other things that some people might consider a little bit extreme. What if I was to tell you,
for instance, here this evening, that I am a co-star in a pornographic movie? This might change
some of your viewpoints about me. And as it happens, that is actually the case. Now I don’t want
you to get too alarmed here that I’m sort of a strange being up here, although a lot of people
think I am, because this was really more of a documentary that I did with a woman friend of
mine but nevertheless I don’t have my clothes on through the entire video, which runs about an
hour. I’m also on a couple of websites right now without my clothes on. Now why would I stand
up here and risk my reputation to say all of this right now? Well, for one thing I’m getting older.
I’m 52 years old and I figure I don’t have as much to lose but I am attempting to make a point
here about Pluto, that is that until we are ready to embrace our Plutos and possibly even flaunt
them before people. It doesn’t always have to do with something sexual, it may have to do with
something else, how can we say that we are really complete, whole types of individuals? It
would be an interesting exercise if, for instance, with a group of people everybody stopped all of
their cocktail chatter and decided to reveal to each other their deepest, darkest secrets. Wouldn’t
that re-arrange an evening if you were to do that? I was just up at a tire store in Rocklin the other
day where my car broke down and somehow it got circulated I was a football star, a former
football star for the Detroit Lions. Now the reason that came up was because I had a friend there
whose stepfather was someone who had worked for the Detroit Lions. So I had a good laugh
over that of course. I said, “No no no.” And he said, “Are you this guy’s father?” Well that was a
little more insulting because the guy who was with me is my housemate and he is exactly 8 days
younger than me. Didn’t care much for that. But I decided instead of just leaving things there,
well, I’ll just tell you I’m in a porn movie and I’m on a website. Do you want to look at it? That
always changes the energy around. When you deal with Pluto, you’re dealing with energy that
shocks, your energy is here, a shit-disturber, if you don’t mind my saying so. You want to break a
stalemate, you want to break beyond a lot of the ethereal Neptune energy, which after a while can
get a little bit boring, go for Pluto.
[Responding to audience] Where is my Venus? My Venus is in Aquarius.
Audience: That’s what I thought. I don’t think that’s Scorpio, I think that’s Aquarius.
I have a lot of weird things in my chart, I don’t deny.
Audience: Yeah, I mean you’re associating… I don’t know if you’re going to associate Pluto with
other things. I mean because there’s death, which is very important as a subject… imagination
and creativity you know, all that. But sex. I would say no sex. I would say you know the
pornography kind of sex. But sex is more Mars.
Sex is partly Mars. It’s partly Venus. It’s bound to get involved in the whole picture.
Audience: Scorpio rising often does have a focus on sex or sexual things. Freud had Scorpio
rising.

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Audience: The thing going on…Freud was actually quite squeamish about sex in his personal
life and my sense of Scorpionic people is they would not be so public about it. That’s why I
thought, I knew you were a Pisces, I’ll bet he has Venus in Aquarius.
That’s right, that’s right. That contributes to the picture. As long as something is not a forbidden
fruit anymore, as long as people practice it openly, then it may cease to be a Plutonian thing. It
ceases to be a Shadow. You see, that’s one of the words we apply to Pluto, a lot of the time, is the
word Shadow and I don’t like that word particularly because it had all kinds of negative
connotations. It’s like something you sort of tolerate like a dead rat that’s in the room and the
New Age says, “Well yeah, yeah, you can find out about that. You can be aware of it. And you
can say, Well, be thankful for it. Thank the Universe for it and then tell it to go away, because
they’re not real comfortable with what that energy represents. Yeah, this whole business of Pluto
is not confined to Sex. One of the other forbidden matters, which is an even greater common
denominator to us all, is the subject of Death. People don’t like to talk about that one either.
Because of course it is disturbing. And a lot of people in the New Age community, for instance,
kind of glorify death as this ecstatic process that we go through that’s this wonderful dream and
that may well be after you cross over but the physical process of dying is nothing pretty. And if
you read a book like From Death to Dust by Kenneth Iserson, which outlines the physical
process of death and tells us, you know, what funeral homes are dealing with, this is stuff that
people don’t want to talk about over the dinner table. But it’s also something like a lot of sexual
issues. It’s something that sort of eats at you and you get curious about and maybe it will make
you uncomfortable but conceivably by talking about it it will release a tension within you and by
talking about it it will be something more conscious for you and by having it be more conscious
for you, then you can be more of a whole type of individual. As you have probably gathered from
the little sample of my chart that I have provided for you, I am a person with definite Scorpionic
tastes and orientations but that isn’t limited to solely sexual pursuits at all. I am very interested in
things like True Crime which I think is a more innocent version of Plutonian energy that we can
all embrace by reading those many paperback books that are out there on that kind of subject.
But when you are talking about Pluto energy, you are talking about something kind of intense
that you feel within yourself, you know, people are different in terms of how intense they may
feel. Something that keeps eating at you, that ultimately you can’t just wish away, but you have
to end up expressing in some form that is appropriate to you. A person who is having an active,
exciting sex life, of course, may not find in Pluto any kind of resemblance to temptation or the
devil. And the people who are most uncomfortable with this so-called porn movie I’m in,
interestingly enough, are the people who are basically uncomfortable with all forms of sex. It’s
an interesting topic to bring up when you say you are in a movie like this because you get, I got,
three different types of reactions and in fact there was a fourth that was particularly amusing and
interesting. And I think I will tell you what the fourth one was. The fourth one was, “How much
money did you make from this?” I didn’t do it for the money.
Audience: The money is another Scorpio thing which we also didn’t talk about.
No we don’t talk about that. Everybody lies about money. I have found that usually the people
who say they don’t have money are the ones who have the most of it through the years among
the clients I have had. It’s always an interesting phenomenon when it comes to money issues too.
Yeah. Yeah, people don’t like to talk about that one either. So anyway, I’m on a website, I’m on a
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couple of websites at the moment and I got one class of people who say, No no no, I do not want
to look at your website. I certainly don’t want to look at your video. I don’t want any part of this.
Audience: Did they tell you to put your clothes on?
But more of them say, Yeah, give me the website address. I’ll look at it on my own. I’ll get back
to you later. A few want to see it. A very few want to see it. Now I want to emphasize, this really
isn’t a porn movie in the usual sense. I’m not exploiting women. It is about a relationship I’ve
had a with a woman whose chart is very similar to mine and I have known her for 30 years. She
is a dominatrix and we play together in the S/M type of thing and I have a great deal of
knowledge about that community and have found it to be extraordinarily intriguing and a place
for me to direct my Plutonian energies in ways that certainly feel safer and more effective than a
lot of other options people may have in dealing with the sometimes dangerous qualities of the
planet Pluto. One of the people I wish was here tonight - and I thought he was coming - is
another astrologer who made a rather important point to me the other day. And maybe I
mentioned that a little bit earlier. Sort of. And that is that the very word “Pluto” is something that
is completely unmatched in terms of psychological terms. There is no word that is a definition
for Pluto energy as far as I know. You could say "Shadow”.
But as I say, that’s too simplistic and it’s way too negative. And as you mention, Pluto has a
positive side to it as well. If you want to say some of these other things are negative. It deals
with, let’s say, just simply an ability to be inquisitive and to look more deeply and under the
surface of things that some people may find immensely mysterious and by digging deeper, like
an archeologist does, perhaps finding some real treasures down there. So one of the things I like
so much about astrology is the way in which we have this jargon that is such a Gift to all of us to
be able to describe a process we’re going through. Hey, I’m going through a Pluto transit. Hey,
I’m going through a Saturn transit. That one word covers exactly what’s going on and you
couldn’t say that in a paragraph or a chapter. But in astrology, you can say it in one word. And
with Pluto, it’s particularly hard to find one word to compare to it but it conveys all kinds of
interesting types of concepts.
"Pluto is the mirror nobody wants to look in."
Now one of the ways that I found particularly interesting of validating what Pluto represented in
my chart was through the use of something called the Local Space Map. I did a lecture on this for
South Bay Astrological Society back in the year 2000. And I had difficulty with it because I had
to use all kinds of props. And it is difficult to explain. Have any of you heard of Local Space
Maps? OK. It is not the same as an Astrolocality Map which is more popularly known but it is a
similar type of concept nevertheless that there are spaces here on earth that pertain to different
types of astrological energies. Now the concept of a Local Space Map is actually fairly simple.
It’s just that when you try to work with it in a particular geographical area, it does get a little
complicated. You have to do some really precise types of measurements. But as you know, if you
are somewhat familiar with astrology, you have a chart that represents the four directions. And
North is at the bottom. South is at the top. East is on the left and West is on the right. So what
does this mean in terms of a Local Space Map? Well, first of all your chart is sort of a twodimensional map of the sky at the time you were born and the center of it represents the hospital
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or home that you happen to have been born in. And of course if you have a planet over here, it
was on the East at the time you were born and if it was over here it was on the West. It doesn’t
work quite as simply with the North-South on that. But what you do, when you have a Local
Space Map, is you take this chart and you just overlap it on your basic street map: City of San
Francisco, San Francisco Bay Area, California if you want but it works better if it’s a local
situation, literally local. It works best if you were born in the San Francisco area and you can use
your hospital as the center point by which to draw the map. So…
Audience: I have not worked with Local Space. I know I’m familiar with it but I haven’t done
much work with it. If you’re going to overlay your city, would you use your natal chart
regardless of where you were born? Do you relocate your chart and use that?
Yes, that’s a troublesome question that came up when I was working with this thing. For my
money I would use the natal chart wherever you go but yes, there are people who are going to
argue with you that you should do something else with that. That’s a very, very good question
and probably worthy of experimentation. But I think the natal chart is basic and of course it does
follow us everywhere even though the relocation chart might certainly endorse as being very
valuable and valid.
OK, so what do you do with this particular thing in terms of your own chart as applied to a street
map? Well, I’ll tell you what I did with mine. I’ll tell you how I got started with the Local Space
Map. And this really, really, was interesting. I have Pluto on the Midheaven as I mentioned and
in the natal chart that is represented by South. So you know what was happening a few years
ago? I was down in the area of the coast between Santa Cruz and Davenport. And I was looking
around down there because I had found this interesting tunnel that had been carved through the
rock and it went under the train tracks and the highway down there. I really didn’t know what a
Local Space Map was. So I found this wonderful kind of question mark-shaped tunnel down
there which is still there at one of the beaches and I thought, you know, maybe there are more of
these tunnels down there between Santa Cruz and Davenport. So I decided I’m going to come
back again because I didn’t have time to explore everything that day. I’m going to start looking
at likely places where there were streams they were trying to divert under the train tracks. They
didn’t want to build trestles, apparently. They wanted to carve these tunnels.
So sure enough, I went back down to those beaches and I went to Laguna Creek Beach which is
right next to Red, White, and Blue Beach. Laguna Creek Beach is an interesting place to go but
it’s not marked on the highway in any way. You just have to know where to park and walk across
the highway and walk across the train tracks down there. And this one was a really big tunnel.
You could easily have driven through it if there had been a road. But there was kind of a stream
that ran through there and some rooms and it went around a curve. Almost all of them go around
curves. And there were these vines hanging down. I think that looks like something. You would
probably agree.
So then I decided I’m going to walk down this embankment a little but further by the railroad
and see what else I can find. Maybe there’s going to be another tunnel. So I walked down that
particular area and there’s this very thick shrubbery and there are these other little tunnels only
they are not in the rock, they’re in the shrubs. There are these paths going inside. I wonder,
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where are all these paths going? These are kind of interesting looking. So after I passed about six
of them, I decide I’m going to go in one of these little tunnels in the shrubbery. Well, I sure hit
the jackpot when I went in this one because I looked down and somebody had very carefully
bordered the path in there with these stones and they had swept the path. And then after I crawled
through this tunnel, it’s just like Alice in Wonderland. It was just marvelous.
I get into this place, there’s no ceiling. There’s no walls. But for all intents and purposes it’s a
house in there. There’s a couple of tents. There’s couches. There are lounge chairs. There are
things hanging from the trees that are decorations, there’s a waste basket. There’s a toilet and
there’s a guy in there too. Living there. And he was nicely dressed, had a nice watch. His hair
was slicked back. I had quite a conversation with him. He was some guy who had been in the
Silicon Valley and he left and he said he had been in there for seven years and he wasn’t that
happy to see me, actually. That’s right. Well, you know what was going on in there? And he
never really fully explained it. There was some kind of motel that was going on in there. And I
soon found furniture all over the place in the shrubbery, closer to the beach, and even across the
highway, couches and things. And then I started seeing the gay guys running in and out of the
shrubs naked. And they’re having a perfectly good time. I don’t know if he was really running a
motel but he was clearly the architect of these cubbyholes that he had produced in there.
Well, as it happens, I’m a train buff too so I like anywhere where there are train tracks. I think
steam locomotives are raving Plutonian symbols, fire-breathing dragons, but you know basically
harmless. There’s going to be one running down the Peninsula again on the 30th, the 2472. Don’t
get in the way of 300,000 pounds of metal running at 70 mph! Yeah, it’s quite a sight to behold.
So I like this area needless to say. These spooky dark tunnels which I love to explore. I’ve been
through all of them now. I found eight down there, go in with a flashlight. I’ve gotten rather wet,
I’ll admit, but I didn’t end up getting bitten by spiders or anything else or whatever you might
expect to find in there and there were some friends who were willing to go in there and a good
number who were not.
If you know anything about the Red, White, and Blue Beach you know that’s a nude beach and
you probably know the other beaches up and down there are also nude beaches and you know,
quite frankly, exhibitionism is something I’m perfectly comfortable with as long as, you know,
I’m not getting arrested for it. Here in San Francisco, every year at the end of September we have
the Folsom Street Fair, which is quite an experience to see everyone wandering around naked or
nearly naked and very comfortable in their bodies and everybody having a good time and the
police standing around and not being bothered by any of that. What a wonderful Plutonian
experience that’s harmless and intense at the same time.
This particular beach though, the Red, White, and Blue Beach, also has something else notable
that I also find very intriguing. It has a haunted house, described in Antoinette May’s book,
Haunted Houses of California. It’s maybe the most haunted house in the whole Bay Area and of
course that intrigues me. Supposedly one of the intriguing things about this beach is there’s a
phantom window that appears up on the cliff at night and there’s a figure that paces back and
forth and there’s no house up there, there’s no window. And I [unintelligible] of course.

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So why am I bringing this up? As a result of wandering around in this area, as I did, I got to
wondering, what is it with this place? And why are there all of these things HERE which intrigue
ME in particular? Obviously somebody else could go there and find the same things but it’s
particularly significant for me as someone who responds strongly to Plutonian types of energies.
So the thing that of course came up in my mind then – yeah – my chart – south – I’ll bet this
place is exactly south of Palo Alto Hospital, where I was born. If I take a line from Palo Alto
Hospital and go straight south from there, I’ll bet I end up on this beach. So I could hardly wait
to get home and I started doing some measurements and eventually I ordered that transparent
screen from AstroCommunications Services which allows you to overlay the chart onto a street
map, where the lines go in your chart, where your Pluto line would go on a map whether it’s San
Francisco or the whole world. It doesn’t work as easy with the world. Computers will do it now
for you too by the way. So I was just terribly excited because when I looked at this map, yes, the
line went right down there. Right through this area.
But you know there was something else that I was real curious about. When I was growing up on
the Stanford campus – my father was a professor there – I learned in 1970 there had been this
very interesting murder that had taken place about a block from my house in 1933. And of course
with all of my Scorpio stuff, I had to know everything I could about this because, you know, a
murder that took place a block away from your house, especially in the 30s, which seems like a
spooky period, especially if you didn’t live then and I didn’t. It makes even stranger sounding.
And it is an interesting case and I studied it to death. What happened is, it turned into an
obsession. And yes, that’s correct. If you are Plutonian you are obsessed – most likely – about
something. And if I don’t have something to be obsessed about, I’m not happy. I just looked at
Gary Zukov’s book, The Heart of the Soul, and he listed all of these things that we really
shouldn’t be: obsessive, and having other little addictions. I thought, you know, some of these
things don’t sound too bad to me!
I’ll admit this case of Mrs. Lamson, who was found dead on Memorial Day of 1933, it isn’t
exactly wholesome, and they weren’t ever sure if her husband actually killed her although I
eventually found out that he did, from a rather unlikely circumstance. But to get to the real crux
of the matter, I got so interested in this case of course I started looking at the photographs of the
two principals, the supposed murderer who was someone who went through about five trials,
hung juries, dismissed for circumstantial evidence, lack of appropriate instructions, etc., etc. He
was in and out of Death Row for about three years and I’ll tell you a little about that in a minute
but what happened and what has happened to me before is if you stare at a photograph long
enough of a person, whether you know them or not, you will start attracting people who look like
that person. So I am sorry to say I had a photograph of this dead woman handy because it
intrigued me and of course what started happening is yeah, I started attracting these women who
looked like Mrs. Lamson. You know what happened?
Audience: Shriveled up?
Well no! Not how she looks today, presumably. No! I found all of these women turned out not to
be very nice people. They all turned out to be trouble. One way or another. And two of them
died prematurely. One by breast cancer, one by suicide. There was a certain look in the eyes that

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I’m STILL looking for and it’s trouble. And it’s somebody who is walking around with
something in the eyes that says DEATH.
So that was an obsession for years and people thought you know, why doesn’t this guy get a life?
Why doesn’t he get off this thing? And of course because it was sort of unsolved, they don’t
know if he killed her or if it was an accident, and I just talked about it all the time. And now I’ve
moved on to other things. Sort of. But I still have dreams of being in that house at night and
wandering around. I did get to know the owner – the current owner – of the house. He thinks I’m
quite insane, I’m sure. Interesting enough guy. He’d never been up to his attic. He’d never been
up to his attic, all of the years he’d been living there. So I had a Scorpio friend and she got very
intrigued with that whole issue of course, so we both went over and said, “Can we look in your
attic, Mr. Paul?” and he said, “Sure, I’ve never been up there, we’ll get you a ladder.” Of course I
had pictures of dead bodies up there or maybe at least a trunk full of items from the 20s,
something like this. Well of course, letdown, just like with Pluto Street. Went up there and there
was absolutely nothing in the attic, but there were some old license plates in the garage. At least
maybe that was something from the 1920s so I thought well maybe that belonged to these – to
this Plutonian couple. Anyway I’m going to get off the Lamson case because I’m going to sound
like I’m still obsessed with it and I sort of am.
But the interesting thing that happened with this case I’ve got to throw in is that on April 3, 1936
was the day Mr. Lamson was released finally from custody. The judge said in San Jose, we
cannot have another trial for this man. We’ve had five already. We can’t find anybody in this
county who hadn’t heard something about it so we’re going to let you go. He went out the door
and from what I understand the bells in the Santa Clara County Courthouse started ringing by
themselves. And that had never happened before. And it was on that day that Bruno Richard
Hauptmann was executed and he was probably innocent according to a lot of standards.
Interesting day in history I would say.
OK, so Pluto, the reason I’m bringing up all of this right now is so that the particular person who
just left, perhaps in a state of disgust over this subject matter and the way in which I was
addressing it, and I thought that might happen, the reason I am bringing this all up is indeed
Pluto moves beyond just the issues of sexual energies but of course if you’re talking about the
ruling planet of Scorpio, that issue is bound to come into the picture and because it is so
obviously an issue that makes so many people uncomfortable, it inevitably is going to be a
Plutonian type of subject and hopefully is something we can have a lot of fun with.
Audience: … negative side of Pluto. You’re not talking about the transformative side…
That gets into the whole issue of not only Pluto but the whole experience of being a Scorpio. To
me, if you want to understand the nature of a planet, you can always look at the Sun sign that it
rules because that will give you a little better idea of what the whole process is supposed to be
about. And some people get mixed up about Uranus and Pluto. They’re both kind of the little
rebels in the chart that pertain to things we might not be comfortable with, that may have shock
value. But the Uranian type of shock value is associated with, you know, inventiveness, things
like Thomas Edison who invented things that people thought were impossible and they told him
you know, you’re crazy to do this. But with Scorpio, you know, it’s a whole different area. It is
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controversial types of things – my particular notion here about this whole issue of
metamorphosis is the manner by which we achieve a metamorphosis is by our willingness to
embrace and address all of the things that Pluto stands for that we are NOT comfortable with. By
your willingness to be conscious, to be courageous enough to look at whatever your own
particular forbidden fruits may be, you then have a much greater willingness and ability to work
on your stuff.
Let me jump ahead right now to the Saturn opposition Pluto which is coming up very soon. The
Saturn opposition Pluto is very much associated with the need of all of us to address what is
hidden and perhaps “evil” by some standards. And we have a choice right now. We can kind of
sit around wishing oh, why couldn’t it be 1999 still? President Clinton’s in the White House and
everything’s kind of merry and silly and the economy is still going wonderfully. Why can’t it just
be like that and all of this troublesome stuff in the world will go away? Including feelings right
now that we need to work on ourselves.
Audience: A lot of people are experiencing this transit-wise within their own natal chart. What
can you…?
Yes, I’ll talk about that. We have Saturn opposition Pluto operating on a collective basis at this
time. I think most people consider the 911 disaster to be very much associated with Saturn
opposition Pluto. Here we have this nice Cancerian country we live in that was supposedly so
safe and secure now threatened by some Outsiders that we clearly feel uncomfortable with,
fanatics willing to get in to airplanes and fly into buildings. All very, very, scary stuff and it’s had
a domino effect in terms of what has been happening to all of us. So you’re right it’s been
affecting us on a collective basis now in terms of our national security and for us to look again at
who is supposed to be in this country and who is not. Who may be evil and who is not. But we
all have our own personal issues to work on too. Which is probably more important. The Saturn
opposition Pluto says, this is a time in your life for you to work on the things that you should be
experiencing a metamorphosis about. And that means in other words that you work on the things
that are hidden within you that you are not comfortable with. With Pluto as well as with Scorpio,
you have to start with the negative in order to go to the positive, and by doing so, then you
become a fully integrated type of individual.
No, S/M is something that a lot of people are not comfortable with. And a place that a lot of
people fool around with is an interesting establishment called The Power Exchange over on Otis
Street here in the great city of San Francisco. With one chart, one city chart, that has the
conjunction of Sun, Uranus, and Pluto all stuck together, how appropriate. Just like with my little
video, trying to get people to go to The Power Exchange is not simple either. Because they are
envisioning all kinds of strange things happening there that they may not be comfortable with.
But the reason I bring this up is that if we have the willingness to go and do something that we’re
kind of frightened of, that we’re kind of squirming over then we go there and we discover it’s
something we shouldn’t be frightened of at all, that sure cleans up a lot of stuff here in a hurry.
So one of the things that I wanted to explain that you could do in order to get in touch with your
Pluto – especially now with the Saturn opposition Pluto coming into play, I’m going to give you
a number of suggestions but I see by now maybe we should have a break, should we?...
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All right, one of the things you want to do with Saturn opposing Pluto in your chart, yes, some
people are going to be experiencing a little more than others. The Mutable signs Gemini, Virgo,
Sagittarius, Pisces – if you have planets there especially Sun, Moon, Rising Sign, things like that,
you may feel this thing as a more impactful sort of experience. Others may observe seemingly
from the sidelines, some of the effects of this particular influence. But regardless of that, Pluto is
an energy that we experience all of the time in our lives whether we’re into astrology or not. It is
a psychological concept. It is something we need to work on and often through a Pluto transit is
an appropriate time for us to do so.
So what I would suggest that you do? Well, why don’t you look at whatever makes you squirm
the most? What you resist the most? What has been festering within you the most? For the
longest period of time. Are there things that you keep doing kind of like the person who keeps
putting their hand on the stove hoping to get different results and that’s just not working? Maybe
you have some other card that you still need to play that you haven’t, that you’ve been reluctant
to and conceivably your parents might not approve of it, the local clergy might not approve of it,
certainly President Bush and the Pope might not approve of it, but maybe it’s something you can
do and it’s nothing illegal.
Maybe you just need to go to a place like Good Vibrations in the City? Good! Good Vibrations is
a wonderful store for working with your Plutonian energies if you are a woman. Good Vibrations
has two branches. One of them is on Valencia Street and the other one is in Berkeley on San
Pablo. The one in Berkeley is a little bigger. It is a store selling sex toys, adult books and
magazines, and it is run by WOMEN. And if you go in there, you will find more women than
men. At least that’s been my experience. It is carpeted, it is SAFE. It is comfortable. It is a place
to get in touch with Plutonian energy in a manner that is constructive. And yes, here we are
talking about not only sex but some of the aspects of sex some people are uncomfortable with
admittedly, such as S/M for instance. As well as the gay world, which, thank heaven, this City is
far more enlightened about.
I have a friend who years ago did something scary. She has Venus in Scorpio square Pluto. And I
don’t recommend this as a way of having fun with Pluto but she did do it and it is interesting.
She got an obscene phone call one day from this guy and instead of hanging up on him she said,
“I want your address. I’m coming over.” And she did. She went over. She had sex with him. Five
minutes and she was out the door and never went back again. Now that’s kind of risky these days
with all of the sexually transmitted diseases that are going around but you know, maybe it was
justified for her as something to get out of her system so she didn’t have nightmares about this
guy for years. He turned out to be a wimp. And that’s the interesting thing about a lot of Pluto
stuff: is things don’t turn out to be anywhere near as forbidding or as dark or as awful as you
think, like SNAKES. Ah, snakes are a Plutonian symbol! Forbidden fruit. Rattlesnakes in
particular. Scary stuff.
I’ve studied the case of the Black Dahlia too and that is a scary little case that is based certainly
on a body that went through a very unpleasant process. Back in 1947, another one of my little
obsessions, I’m afraid. But in one of the books on that, we did have a picture of her, not only in
an empty lot but also in the morgue which was even scarier and when I first looked at it, yeah, I
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practically fell down because it did look grisly and then of course like all Pluto things, it sort of
kept eating at me and eating at me and I had to go back and look at it some more and eventually
if you look at a picture of anything, you know by the hundredth time it doesn’t seem scary any
more. And that’s so often the case with death and sexual matters and all kinds of things. You
have a question?
Audience: Where is your Mercury?
I have Mercury in Pisces.
Audience: What house?
Fourth house.
Audience: And your Sun?
My Sun is in Pisces also fourth house. Opposite Saturn. And Mercury trine Uranus. I’m March 8,
1950, 10:24pm, Pacific Standard Time, Palo Alto, California. At Hoover Pavillion which I used
as the center point of my glorious Local Space Map.
Audience: I think one of the things I find interesting about this cause I attended this lecture
because I am interested in Pluto issues. I have such a different relationship to it than you. I have
Pluto Rising. And I have Venus in Scorpio. What I do for a living is I am a therapist. And I deal
with people who have addictions and obsessions and stuff and you know I have a fair amount of
success with a lot of people so I see it more as helping people deal with trauma and dealing with
pain, and all of the things that are hard to handle emotionally. So this discussion to me is on such
a much lower level. From Pluto. I’m operating on a higher vibration.
Well yes, that is your right. And I don’t deny there have been a lot of interesting books written on
Pluto and I like the one Donna Cunningham did years ago, Healing Pluto Problems. That was a
very good book. But I am coming from a different perspective here and that is that I think to deal
with a lot of Pluto energy is NOT to engage in a lot of the more acceptable terminology and
levels associated with it. Because I DO believe it stands for a lot of things that YOU may be
uncomfortable with here this evening which I am going to address.
The thing about Pluto is it is the bottom of the barrel and it’s all of the things that everybody is
afraid of and uncomfortable with and yes, it is nasty, yes it can be ugly. Yes it sounds evil but by
no means am I saying is that the only thing it is about. Every planet has a polarity, a positive and
negative polarity. And you could hire a whole number of other lecturers to come here this
evening and talk about the more exalted versions of Pluto and engage in a lot of very esoteric
language but you won’t have many people come here and tell you that they were in a
pornographic movie, that they’re on three websites and they enjoy going to The Power Exchange
and fooling around before hundreds of people, with six women attacking them over four or five
hours. I think it’s fun. And this is what I’m talking about in this lecture. Having FUN WITH
PLUTO! Not necessarily processing it in some kind of serious fashion. That has its place. But
my message here is we need to embrace our forbidden fruits and have FUN with them and I
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don’t think sex or S/M is anything low or evil and I think going to cemeteries is fun too. I went
over to Oakland, that is where the Black Dahlia is buried. It took me three visits before I found
her gravesite. That to me was interesting. It was my way of expressing Scorpio energies and I’ll
bet there are other people in this room who have some of these DARK issues that they may want
to address here as well. You know “Leave it to Beaver” - that show would have been so DULL if
we didn’t have Eddie Haskell in that show and everybody thought that Eddie Haskell was so
DISGUSTING! But the fact of the matter is everybody was curious, what are the magazines that
Eddie Haskell reads, for instance. What does he do for fun? Those are the kinds of questions that
I like to ask. What did Frank in “Blue Velvet” do for fun aside from what ended up in the movie
here? I think it’s just fun and interesting to consider that kind of stuff.
Audience: I thought it was “Leave it to Beaver”, one of the co-stars in “Leave it to Beaver”
ended up being an adult porn star.
Oh isn’t that interesting? I don’t know. Eddie Haskell ended up being a politician in Los Angeles
and he was shot but he did survive. He had a bulletproof vest. Very interesting, isn’t it? OK, I’m
going to give you some more exercises of what to do with Pluto that I think are constructive. If
you don’t like them, and you don’t want to do them, you don’t have to! I’m not here to win a
popularity contest tonight otherwise I wouldn’t have told you I’m in a porn movie. OK? OK.
Confront what you fear the most.
What an exercise in self-discovery, what if all of you in this room revealed your deepest, darkest
secrets? And the best way of working with Pluto which I think you will agree is
COMMUNICATION. COMMUNICATE the things that make you nervous, that make you
scared about sex, about death, about all of these subject matters of people in trouble, including
yes, people in prisons which does indeed have some Plutonian ramifications. The beginning of a
process, of a relationship, or whatever starts with communication and if we don’t have that in
this world, we’re in trouble. Here’s another one: what would you do if no one remembered the
next day that you did what you did? I know what I thought I would do but it does sound kind of
nasty. I think it would be fun to go into a restaurant and spill food on people in a fancy
restaurant. Or something. I don’t think that would be too much karma. But something like this is
something to consider. Because it will get you in touch with things which you would normally
not consider doing because of course, there may be laws against it. There may be standards
related to religion about it. But at least you can think about it. And heaven knows what you might
want to come up with. And another thing that you can always do is you can contact the person in
your world that you think is the vilest person you can think of and possibly engage with THEM
in a conversation and see what comes of that. It might be enlightening. It might be pleasant
rather than something that would make you dislike them more here.
OK, so enough of my little high horse here. So, what we might do here is take a look at these
charts that I brought here tonight which are examples of different Plutonian characters that I will
admit I don’t necessarily endorse everything that they do. Now I deliberately did not put names
next to these birth data because I thought it would be kind of interesting to have you guess, at
least at first, who they are.

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This is the one woman out of the eight. I wish that I could find more representation but I couldn’t
find a really classic Plutonian character, at least among the people I was looking at. This
particular woman is an actress and she has appeared in a number of very provocative movies.
She also is musically talented and is an extremely attractive woman. And she put out a book
many years ago whose title I can’t remember that outlined all of the different and interesting
sexual types of avenues a person could pursue and obviously she was comfortable with
absolutely all of them. She wasn’t promoting, you know, molesting children here, believe me,
I’m not in favor of that. But there’s a lot of other things that we could do here. We have
somebody wo probably existed a good deal of her life with energies and characteristics that were
hidden and perhaps when she got away from her parents and into the Hollywood culture she had
an opportunity of expressing this combination of Mercury and Pluto together in Virgo in her own
very articulate way. This is a woman with very outspoken qualities and indeed someone that is
very easy to listen to because she does not engage in a lot of esoteric language. She has Mars
square Uranus, a good aspect for someone with real sexual chemistry and energy here. Yes, this
is Madonna, August 16, 1958 at 7:00AM – that does sound a little dubious I’ll admit, right on the
hour, Eastern Standard Time in Bay City, Michigan.
This man I find a little more intriguing but I wish I had his birth time. Solar charts are kind of
under-rated. You should always have a Solar chart for yourself because even if you know your
birth time, there’s always something valid about calculating a chart for sunrise, more or less, on
your birthday. And this particular gentleman is someone that was a producer and director of very
interesting movies back in the 1950s. And he has something that so many people do who express
their Plutos in what I feel is a very interesting fashion, the Sun square Pluto. I have found that
this aspect comes up again and again… this particular guy was not exactly afraid to do what
would have been considered quite controversial during the 1950s and for that matter at other
points. This was a man who invaded Guadalcanal as a US Marine and he was wearing a bra and
panties underneath. He directed his movies in women’s clothes. And he was considered probably
the worst movie director of all time and he also, of course, put together what is considered to be
the worst movie of all time, “Plan Nine from Outer Space”. Ed Wood, Jr. is this particular chart.
This man also produced “Glen or Glenda”, which is actually a more interesting movie from a
psychological perspective. “Glen or Glenda” was largely about a man who was trying to work up
the courage to ask his wife if he could wear her sweater, her angora sweater. He loved the FEEL
of women’s clothes even though he wasn’t really gay. It was one of the interesting kinds of
paradoxes of Ed Wood, Jr. So he also did “Bride of the Monster”, “Night of the Ghouls”, and
here’s a good one: “Orgy of the Dead”. Does that sound like a good Plutonian title? I kind of like
that one. So anyway, I think his chart is a wonderful example because if we use the Solar chart,
we end up with Pluto on the Midheaven and we have someone who admittedly flaunted his
admittedly bizarre tastes and interests out on the screen and a lot of people thought he was crazy,
certainly quite controversial and he concluded his life admittedly in rather a homeless state and
behaving in a rather erratic and unusual manner. Moon conjunct Uranus is not exactly stable
necessarily emotionally. But it is in his House of Work and would easily have gone well with
producing unusual movies in my view. My whole point about Ed Wood, Jr. in terms of Pluto is
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he wasn’t really getting arrested except for the fact that he was always out of money, but he
wasn’t getting arrested for that. He was somebody who was simply working with the sometimes
bizarre Pluto energies in a manner that was considered somewhat bizarre in the 1950s but easily
enchanting many people in his world, both the ones who worked for him and the people who
watched his movies. And “Plan 9 from Outer Space” admittedly is so bad it’s good. It’s such an
interesting movie to rent sometime, the production values are terrible and the acting is terrible,
and they use ash trays for flying saucers and things of that nature. There’s a book called
Nightmare of Ecstasy on Ed Wood, Jr. that’s really quite good that tells you a lot about his very
interesting life.
All right, so we don’t end up running out of time here, this particular man is somebody that was
fairly well known in San Francisco. He is someone that Bob Hope of all people called the
funniest comedian of all time. And what did Bob Hope find particularly funny that this particular
comedian did? He did a skit at one time, and impression, if you will believe this, of Jack Parr on
the toilet. Now Pluto of course deals with a lot of that subject matter. And Pluto deals with
sewage treatment plants. Nobody wants a sewage treatment plant in their town. They certainly
don’t want it next door. But try to function without it? How can we? This in an excellent symbol
of Pluto energy. We’ve got to have it somewhere. It’s unpleasant. We don’t like to talk about it.
But the whole town is going to fall apart if it’s not there. You have to have a Plutonian part of
town. And hopefully a place where, like Nevada, people may have an opportunity of expressing
their sexual energies without getting arrested and that happens in San Francisco to some extent.
And maybe you DO want to go to a casino. Or maybe you do want to go out to a cemetery at
night. Who knows? But we all need this Pluto to be expressed in one form or another and if you
so wish, you can deal with it in terms of psychology because Pluto certainly deals with the
psychology of life and understanding human beings and encouraging people to go through their
metamorphoses by being willing to face all of the ugly, dark things that may be associated with
the planet Pluto. So this is Lenny Bruce’s chart. In other words we have this tight T-square
involving the Sun, Jupiter, and Pluto. This is somebody who enjoyed shocking people, making
jokes about the Pope at a time in which you just didn’t do that sort of thing at all and admittedly
he did not end his life in a particularly pleasant way any more than Ed Wood, Jr. did. But he
obviously had fun poking fun at people who took themselves way too seriously and getting into
subject matter that was considered sacred like the Pope and certainly about sex, which in the 50s,
you know, you could be arrested, you could be sent to prison for twenty years for having oral sex
and to this day, do you know if you go to Texas – wonderful Texas – if you are caught with a
dildo in your car by a police officer you will be put in jail overnight. Can you believe this? But
this is what I understand. Just amazing. Did you have a question?
Audience: Later.
Yeah, after I said that thing, you’re speechless. I know. OK. So this guy is kind of an interesting
character and of course his Sun’s on the Midheaven. So he was obviously quite happy doing his
thing in a very public way here. And he did and he was certainly a unique character in his class
with Uranus in his third house, very willing to convey a unique point of view here. Often
controversial, of course.

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All right, THIS man is someone a lot of us really do adore. And this man is enormously
successful to this day. He is a big Hollywood star. And he can do pretty much what he wants
because he is such a big Hollywood star and I don’t say that in a cynical sense at all. I adore this
man because he puts such basic energy into all of his roles. He puts everything into what he does.
This man played The Joker in “Batman”. If you will remember that movie, when The Joker was
on the screen, the whole movie lit up and when he wasn’t the movie just lay dead in the water.
He was also in one of my favorite movies, “The Shining”, about a caretaker for a hotel that’s
closed for the winter. Boy! Was that full of Plutonian symbolism too. So this is Jack Nicholson’s
chart. And we all know he has led a very active life, not just in terms of Hollywood stardom but
in the people he’s known, like Dennis Hopper, who isn’t necessarily a regular guy. He’s a guy
who’s had a very dramatic love life but he’s also like Lenny Bruce. Look at this. We’ve got that
Sun-Jupiter-Pluto thing again. He’s got the Sun-Pluto square just barely and he has that JupiterPluto opposition which is very much associated with people who like to shock people. I have that
in my chart too and I don’t deny it’s fun to shock people up to a point. But you know, after a
while, if they really get upset, I get uncomfortable with that too.
Audience: That nodal axis is seeing some action too right now.
Oh yes. I thought of that! And look at how the Lunar Eclipse is going to be right next to the
Saturn opposition Pluto on the weekend of May 25th. That’s why that Saturn opposition Pluto is
going to be so important. We have a Lunar Eclipse next to it. Not the Full Moons that we had
under the first two run-bys. And then we have two more eclipses. So everything will be
impactful. And that Lunar Eclipse on his Mars in his fifth house - heaven knows what kind of
interesting things he may be doing sexually around that time or maybe he’ll do something
creatively inspiring that turns out to have a real impact on the entertainment world. Yeah he has
his choices as we all do. Whether it pertains to Pluto transits or to something else. But he has
Pluto on the Ascendant. So his direction in life, at least in my view, pertains to wanting to do
things that ring people’s chimes. And that could be a psychologist too who wants people to work
on their stuff by being willing to ask critical, difficult types of questions. But some of us do it by
just being weird. Yes?
Audience: Do you think people can engage their obsessions but really be avoiding something
else?
Absolutely. Absolutely. We all know about workaholics. And I’ll be the first one to admit, I’m a
workaholic. I don’t like to sit still. To me sitting still is like my father in the last few years of his
life, he sat like this big, overweight pile of nothing watching television and eating all day and
I’m paranoid about turning into him. But I also won’t deny that my workaholism has been sort of
a cover to other issues in my life that I still need to address such as things like intimacy,
something Venus in Aquarius people are admittedly not very comfortable with. And my interest
in S/M, I won’t deny is an avenue by which I experience sexual intensity without a lot of
intimacy. I get drama. I get excitement. I get endorphins which is like a sexual release that goes
on for days but it’s also not dealing with intimacy issues. So I don’t deny I’m sitting here talking
about all this. I have my Pluto issues too that I’m still working on. So anyway, this guy has led a
rich and interesting life – I wouldn’t mind trading places with Jack Nicholson because he would
be somebody here who probably isn’t going to go into the later years of his life – I keep thinking
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this stuff is still up here – turning into somebody who is embracing the energies of the Moon and
Saturn. I’ll bet this guy is going to go out with a bang when it is time for his to be moving on to
the next world.
This one I didn’t have when I did the lecture back in 1995. This is someone who WAS a big star
in porn movies. But that isn’t the extent of it and the extent is a good word for him. He was, yes,
what you might call well-endowed. And he supposedly had sex with 14,000 women. And he
died of AIDS. Not exactly a fun way of dealing with Pluto but I guess if you have sex with
14,000 women, something just might happen along the way here.
Audience: Wilt Chamberlain, he also claimed to have sex with thousands of women. Who is this?
This is John Holmes.
Audience: If you do the numbers it might not be very believable.
Yes, sexual matters are subject to exaggeration. I think you will agree.
Audience: If Pluto is about transformation, do you think that one of the fundamental things about
Pluto is transformation?
Audience: and if a person is obsessing about things, like sex and death in your case, are you
avoiding the transformation, is there a floor you’re not willing to go through because you’re sort
of like obsessing and going around and around about it?
I would not really say I’m going around and around in the usual sense of the word.
Audience: Revisiting, let’s say?
Revisiting?
Audience: Obsessing?
Yeah. Well to me, the heart of being Plutonian or Scorpionic is to engage in a continuous process
of investigation along whatever lines continue to hold my interest and I think with sex and death
you have kind of a bottomless pit as far as that’s concerned. I suppose I could investigate basketweaving but I don’t think that would probably hold as much of a charm for me here along the
way. But…
Audience: There’s a transformation point or there’s a transformative imperative that may or may
not be realized.
I certainly see your point.
Audience: Could we put your chart up on the board?

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I don’t mind if other people don’t mind. OK, OK. It is not my intention to hide anything here
tonight. I’ve got 17 Leo on the Midheaven. We’ll do the house cusps here first of all. I’ve got my
11th house at 20 Virgo, the 12th house is 17 Libra, 10 Scorpio on the Ascendant. And we have 9
Sagittarius on the second and we have 12 Capricorn on the third and the rest is fairly easy to fill
in here… I have Pluto at 16 Leo at the top, I have Saturn at 15 Virgo in the 10th, I have Mars at 7
Libra in the 11th and the South Node accompanying that, also 7 Libra, and Neptune also at 16
Libra in the 11th. And we have the Moon at 23 Scorpio here in the first, we have Venus at 7
Aquarius in the 3rd, we have Jupiter – which is why I suppose I am an astrologer in part – 22
Aquarius in the 4th house, we have Mercury at 2 Pisces and the Sun is at 18 Pisces also in the 4th
house. And last but not least, and some people think this is the root of all my evil, I have Uranus
in the 8th house. It’s zero Cancer. And I have five retros, all five planets above the horizon are
retrograde. Uranus, Pluto, Saturn, Mars and Neptune… So did you want to say something now
about it or ask a question about it?
Audience: Explain yourself.
That sounds like fun. I like to do that. Yeah. Yeah. Anybody who looks at a chart like this, you
got to figure I’m into something weird. And I’ve often thought, if I was in the Midwest, yeah, I
might have turned into Ed Gein, who is sort of the last chart in here. Ed Gein, who liked to rob
graves and collect body parts and make interesting things out of them. I mean, hell, Wisconsin in
the fifties must have been a boring place. What else are you supposed to do? You know that was
the only news story of any consequence in Wisconsin in the whole decade? I mean, nothing
happened in Wisconsin in the fifties except Ed Gein and his strange habits! So now I’m in
California and I can screw around. If you have a Moon in Scorpio, and I know a lot of people
who have it, the Moon sign I believe is everybody’s own little map house where you have
something that indeed goes around and around and around and you’re not exactly sure exactly
what to do with that. And Moon in Scorpio people are always wandering around with keyed up
energy, not knowing exactly what to do with it. But sometimes, of course, finding an appropriate
avenue, which is not basket-weaving, that may have sexual connotations, may involve research,
could even be archeology, something where you focus on things with tremendous intensity,
dislike people coming around asking you stupid questions while you’re doing so. I am an
astrologer and having that Moon there gives me a place to apply my intensity and get intimate
with people right away and all of their problems and all of their issues. It keeps my Moon in
Scorpio amused in a way that would not happen if I was working in a CAR WASH. Or
something like that. Sure, I have Venus in Aquarius and I have some very unusual friends. Five
of my women friends are dominatrixes and they are dear people and they are expressing their
power consciously, so we don’t crab with each other because we have a place to express the
occasional nastiness, consensual nastiness is sort of S/M. It’s taking the dramas of life and
applying them in an erotic way. A person with Venus is Aquarius is always looking for
alternatives in terms of relationships and I LOVE SMART WOMEN… Yeah, I have Capricorn
on the 3rd, that’s correct.
Audience: So how does that fly out for your father kind of thing?
Well my father was represented by other issues if you want to talk about him. My father was gay.
And that was a secret until I was 21. I didn’t know it. My mother didn’t know until I was about
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16. They covered it over and my housemate, my current housemate, who is gay, I’m not, he is the
one who pointed it out to me and finally all of the pieces came together. So these strange habits
of my father which I couldn’t interpret, the body language, these people who would come and go
that would act a little strange, the discovery that my father was gay was like bringing the Pluto
thing up to consciousness where it then became something very manageable instead of
something that was lurking around in the dark and I didn’t know exactly what this was all about.
But I also have Saturn in the 10th house opposite my Sun. I think I had some karma with my
father who was also an alcoholic. I have Neptune on the 12th house and I have had to be very
careful with alcohol in this life. I have never been an alcoholic but I know how easy it would be
for me to be that way. Pisces people are either alcoholic or more likely they attract people who
ARE. But Pisces is also the sign of the Masochist. We get often a physical charge our of extreme
levels of pain. Endorphins.
Audience: Martyrism.
Martyrism. Joan of Arc probably got a bang out of being burned at the stake. Oh, I don’t really
think that. That’s a bad joke and I don’t really mean to be that way. But the fact is, yeah, I have
researched this. I’ve done a lot of charts for people in the S/M community and the sign the comes
up most frequently is Pisces. Not just in what they call the “bottom” position, but the “top”, the
dominatrixes, are more often Pisces. Why? Because the Sun, which represents the male energy is
getting projected through the men they know which assume the more submissive type of role
here. I do have Uranus in the 8th house, yes, I like inventive, unusual types of sexual encounters,
you might say things that come up out of nowhere. And I have Libra on my 12th – I regard
marriage as a bit of a prison.
Pisces lesson in life is not to just succumb, to learn to say no, to establish boundaries, God
knows, otherwise yeah, you can lead a really ghastly existence. Moon in Pisces in particular I
think is very, very tricky. Because those people, they just have a hard time saying no. Very softhearted but they also give up too easily in life and go off in a corner and hide. Yeah. I’ve seen
that happen a lot. But they’re awfully honest in some ways in their emotions in a way that I
rarely see. Yes, problems with self-esteem, that is correct. And a lot of people have accused me
by being in S/M and being on the receiving end of various things here of self-esteem issues. I
don’t look at it that way. I just look at it as a very big sensual experience, as something that is a
big psychological grabber to me. But you know, a lot of people see that otherwise and would
prefer to find explanations for everything that may not apply. Do we have other things that we
should do here? Anybody else?
Audience: I don’t know who the other two charts are.
Oh yes, why don’t we do that! Let’s not deprive you of the other charts.
This one, I’ll admit he did not have the happiest life and is currently living in exile in France.
Roman Polanski. Moon conjunct Pluto square Mars and Uranus. Does that ever look like
somebody who would have his wife brutally murdered? Now that is not the point of this chart. If
you have seen his movies, they are truly Plutonian, “Rosemary’s Baby”. And another movie that
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has been lost in obscurity, “The Tenant”. Interesting movie. This guy, yeah, he got into trouble
for dealing with an underage woman sexually. That maybe isn’t the best way of having fun with
Pluto. But it’s his movies, his ability to take his own psychological perspective, which is clearly
complex, with this combination and put it on the screen that I think is a considerable source of
admiration. One way to deal with Pluto energy - if you’re not comfortable with Pluto energy and
you don’t want to go out and do something - go to a movie! That may have Plutonian
connotations. Go to Disneyland and go on Mister Toad’s Wild Ride. Disney knew enough about
human nature to know you have to have a district of DISNEYLAND with scary stuff in it.
Maybe psychologically instead of all nicey-nice types of stuff. So anyway, Mr. Polanski, I think
he thinks he is a bit of an atheist, but god knows his movies are so interesting and he gets into
archetypal stuff. You know I can’t help but wonder where this guy is coming from but he sure is
an interesting character here, and of course, yeah, he has the Sun in the 9th house. I guess you
could say, yes, his success, well, is found somewhere else in Hollywood which was once his
home is not and now he’s overseas where he was born and now maybe that doesn’t seem like
home to him. I’ll bet he’s still looking for a place to land here in life.
This man, now you’ll REALLY get suspicious. Anton LaVey, the Satanist. Now I am not a
Satanist. I want to make that real clear and some people might think that considering the subject
matter of this evening. I think Anton LaVey was a clown. He certainly was an entertainer. He
used to be in the circus doing magic tricks among other things and there are a lot of people I
gather in the Satanic community who don’t think this guy is legitimate. But either way you look
at it, he was into bizarre stuff. I guess he did have a kind of feast once where there was actually a
cadaver that was baked and I don’t know if people ate it or not. But that was what this book said
that I just looked in where I got this chart. April 11, 1930, 3:10am, Central Standard Time in
Chicago. Look at this: the Sun square Pluto again. With Pluto in the 5th house. Looking for, what
shall we say? More interesting and devious ways of finding entertainment and expressing one’s
creative energies. Mars in Pisces. That’s someone who uses their imagination very much to their
advantage but can be possessed by negative types of psychic powers and the like. Interesting
chart, I think you will agree. With a Mars square Jupiter thrown in. That gave him some obvious
aggressive tendencies which he did put to good use and he got Jayne Manfield involved in his
little cult there and I guess that was sort of for publicity. I don’t think she was a Satanist for one
minute.
And then finally, our last celebrity, Mr. Ed Gein of Wisconsin. The necrophiliac. With Pluto on
the Ascendant here, opposite the Moon. He had a lot of problems with his mother, very
repressive type of mother, someone who came around and really laid some heavy trips on him
about women. And of course he was into having sex with corpses. And WEARING parts of
corpses. I mean this guy was Mister Weird. This guy was the guy who the “Psycho” character,
Norman Bates, was based upon and also the character Anthony Hopkins played in “Silence of the
Lambs”. Not exactly who you would want to bring home to dinner but I gather he was a model
inmate in the asylum where they put him. He did not go to prison. He was a Virgo and Virgos
make wonderful SURGEONS. So he was good with his hands and he did a lot of interesting
things. Too bad this couldn’t have been toned down a little bit, what he was doing. But God
knows, yes, a very interesting man, I think you will agree.
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Audience: You talked a little bit about the upcoming Saturn Pluto thing. What is your general
read of the meaning of it?
The general read of the Saturn opposition Pluto can be compared to what took place in 1965
and ’66 and also in 1931. This is on a NATIONAL scale. Because I think you will agree that
in ’65 and ’66 our culture went through a significant revolution where sexuality opened up,
higher consciousness came into play, very much a part of the New Age at that point in particular.
We had a significant change in the dress code, the music, and we questioned our government in a
way that had not been seen before. Lyndon Johnson was eventually put out of office largely as a
result of what began at that time in terms of the anti-war movement. And same with Herbert
Hoover in 1931, they had that Veterans March in ’32. That nearly closed down the government.
It is not well known how really BIG that thing was and Hoover knew after that happened that he
would not get re-elected. Those were the last two times that it occurred.
So this time around, we don’t have the merriment of the hippie era, but we have stuff going on
which could easily blow up on us, literally. It might be a terrorist attack. It might be corruption in
government being exposed. The management of various corporations like Enron. We’re already
seeing the wrongdoing associated with them. And I think it was interesting the other day they
discovered those unburied bodies back in Georgia. That’s kind of a Saturn opposition Pluto type
of thing here.
On a more individual basis, the Saturn opposition Pluto is associated with working on everything
that is hidden in you which you may be uncomfortable with. And heaven knows what kinds of
business the therapists did after the 9-11 disaster. More business than they ever wanted. But it
probably did open more cans of worms than just what the 9-11 disaster promoted. It had a
domino effect on all of us. So now we are taking a look at what is REALLY important in our
lives instead of what color we want our next sport utility vehicle to be. And that’s a Pluto thing to be able to look at the things that truly have depth, that truly matter, that have to do with what’s
deep down in everybody’s gut, whether that has to do with your sex life or your paranoia or your
obsessions, Pluto has to do with that final thing at the bottom, at the end of the road, at the
bottom of that map that we all have to get at. So the Saturn opposition Pluto is giving us one last
chance to deal with all of the consciously and if we don’t deal with it consciously, and that aspect
comes around, then we’re going to have interesting incidents occurring, confrontations with
people that we weren’t expecting where we end up having words with people that have been long
festering. That would be an obvious example. For people who are not accustomed to expressing
their anger, for people who are not accustomed to looking into issues pertaining to their
sexuality, for people who do not wish to deal with the subject of DEATH, God, that’s a forbidden
fruit subject as much as anything else here. A common denominator for all of us is death but who
wants to have a lengthy discussion about that and all of the unpleasant ways that we probably
have the potential for leaving the world under. Most of us do not die in our sleep. Most of us
have other ways of going and that’s not a comfortable thing to talk about. But that’s a Pluto thing
and that’s a Scorpio thing and Saturn which represents truth and the need to look at things under
harshly realistic light, this is what’s setting off Pluto here in the months ahead and this is what’s
going to be so dramatic and exciting and it’s what’s going to divide this year up into a before
May and June to an after May and June type of year. Just like Jimmy Carter and “Gone With the

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Wind”. His life was divided up into the period of before and after that he said at one time, maybe
that was before he was president. Ha ha, that must have been fun for him.
Audience: Before and after the movie?
Before and after the movie “Gone With the Wind”, that’s correct. In Georgia, Atlanta, Georgia,
that was a big thing. When they had the premiere there, nobody forgot about that, for years.
Audience: You know one thing about those transits which the person who taught me astrology
was a very good astrologer he said like Uranus and Pluto type energies are the kind of energies
that it says you know in the negative if you resist them, if you go with them you change and if you
resist them, they get in bus accidents. Bad things happen…
Yes, yes. That’s exactly what I agree with. I mean you have the choice with Pluto - you can
experience it consciously which will give you more power over the manner in which you
experience or express it or you can block it, make it unconscious and then the Universe will
decide how you experience it which may be through some disruptive and hellish event. Thank
you. I guess I had better stop here at this point. You have been a very wonderful audience and
you’ve given me an opportunity of expressing my views in a form I have never done so before an
audience. So thank you for coming and go home and have some interesting dreams or nightmares
based on the material I have covered this evening.
"Pluto is the unknowable which shines forth in all of its radiance." – Duncan Nanney

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